Wednesday, January 25, 2012

Canton robberies...

One victim speaks, police say don't worry
Posted by at

21 comments:

Anonymous said...

The thugs and criminals in MD know that the law-abiding citizens in MD can't defend themselves because the thugs and criminals in Annapolis and Pikesville only issue concealed carry permits to people who meet the "WW" qualification (wealthy and well-connected).

If only 1% of the good people of MD were allowed to carry concealed, the thugs and criminals on the streets would think twice before doing things like this, because they wouldn't know if their intended victim might just defend themselves instead of being forced to be a victim by State laws.

If you want to reduce crime in MD, allow the law-abiding people to defend themselves.

If you are tired of being a victim, then move to a free state like VA or WV where the government recognizes your FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHT of self-defense.

MD isn't a State, it's a serfdom. Wake up, good people of Maryland...

Thu Jan 26, 08:20:00 PM EST
buzoncrime said...

So, um, let's see: you see 5 young men walking toward you, so you do what............? Put your hand on your gun (assuming you see them in time to put it there), pull your gun out and threaten them--just in case they may try to rob you, or just shoot some of them, hoping the rest will scatter?

Thu Jan 26, 08:52:00 PM EST
ToneGrail said...

Buzz,

As a former cop, what would you do, assuming that you probably encoutered this scenario while armed off duty?

Fri Jan 27, 10:47:00 AM EST
Cham said...

Hopefully, buzoncrime wouldn't do anything. Walking isn't illegal.

Fri Jan 27, 11:58:00 AM EST
ppatin said...

I'm pro-concealed carry but it's not the panacea to crime that some people say it is. There's plenty of real live evidence from shall-issue states to show that.

Fri Jan 27, 12:01:00 PM EST
Anonymous said...

Is there any State I can move to where I can carry a nonconcealed weapon and point it at anyone that may pass by me on a city street? That's the only way the thugs will know I'm serious. Preferably I would like to have a pistol in each hand, and a self-destruct grenade tethered to my wallet.

Fri Jan 27, 02:48:00 PM EST
buzoncrime said...

ToneGrail,
Oddly enough, I've never encountered a similar situation. And though I've lived in the city all but 9 of my 29 years of my police career, I actually very rarely took my gun with me when not on my way to or coming home from work.
And, I live in the Medfield neighborhood of the city now, and am retired, so I never take my gun with me outside the house.
People just are not aware of the potential criminal and civil liability one faces with mistaken and injudicious use of a gun.
But to answer your question directly, I'd probably try to sense their intent, and, either stay away from them and see what happens, but just go about my business. If I did happen to be armed, I'd sure not want them to know it till they started something.

In truth, at 6 feet, 220 pounds, and mean-looking too, I'm not sure that they'd do anything.

As Cham says, it's not against the law to walk down the street.

I did have a car full of guys suddenly pull up on me once. I just backed up and got on the sidewalk and kept my distance; they were merely (supposedly) asking directions. If they got out, I'd just run opposite of the way their car was pointing.

Fri Jan 27, 05:09:00 PM EST
Anonymous said...

"Anonymous" and "buzoncrime", according to US DOJ statistics, concealed carry permit holders are actually between 5 and 7 times LESS likely to be involved in any sort of crime than law enforcement officers, and over 10 times less likely to be involved in crime than the "average" citizen.

CC permit holders are generally conscientious, law-abiding, family-oriented, loving and responsible people.

"Anonymous", your attempts at sarcasm are nothing more than a reflection of your own internal distrust. Just because you know that YOU can't trust yourself with a firearm, doesn't mean other people can't be trusted. There is a term for this flawed logic--it's called "projection", and it can be treated with psychotherapy and medication...

I've been carrying for over 20 years. I've lived in the DC/VA/MD area for most of that time. I've only had to pull a gun once, when I was attacked by a knife-wielding crackhead late one night while jogging (I used to work "second shift", and jogged after I got home). No shots were fired, the perp dropped his knife and ran away (and presumably had to change his shorts soon thereafter), and I filed a police report.

Would I draw on a group of several thuggish-looking men coming toward me? No. My training and knowledge of the law would prevent me from that. I would cross the street, or duck into a nearby store, or make some other sort of casual evasive move.

But if they somehow "got the drop on me" and were beating me, I would not hesitate to draw.

And if I draw, I WILL fire, because if I am in fear for my life, the law is on my side in most jurisdictions (except MD, where self-defense is not an acceptable defense, and where you have to be rich and well-connected to get a permit).

I have permits issued by 3 different states, which have required hours of classroom training and range qualifications and are recognized by 40 states (MD not included!). I've had hundreds of hours of extra training. I'm NRA-certified, and working toward becoming a self-defense instructor. I've been a competitive shooter in USPSA and IPSC for over 2 decades.

I love my family, and consider them to be precious and valuable enough to defend--with lethal force if need be.

But in the State of MD the only thing the State Police deem as valuable enough to protect are prescription drugs, gold, jewelry, or large cash deposits.

My daughters, wife, and granddaughter aren't seen as being as valuable to the MSP as a vial of Oxycotin or a Tiffany ring.

If you enjoy being a perpetual candidate for victim-hood, that is your choice. The police are NOT there to protect you--they have no duty or legal obligation to do so (see Warren vs. DC).

But I, for one, accept that personal safety is a PERSONAL responsibility, and I am gravely insulted that the State of MD denies hundreds of thousands of law-abiding citizens the fundamental human right of self defense within it's border.

You are a sad, sad, creature, and I hope you don't have any family members who look to YOU for safety or protection, because the would apparently be as mistaken as people who look to the police to "protect" them...

Sat Jan 28, 01:27:00 AM EST
Anonymous said...

Well, cham, walking isn't illegal.

In fact, when Freddie Jones was standing in Yau Bros. waiting for his egg foo young, the four or five guys wearing masks & hoodies who came in and robbed/shot him were just walking.

Now, the handgun they had on them WAS illegal, but the police had no probable cause to look for it because .... they were just walking. And that's not illegal.

So,... the take home message is that you should not so much be trying to remove the guns from the streets of Baltimore as to remove the hoodlums from the streets of Baltimore.

We should be behaviorally identifying persons for removal.

The means of so doing is to violate their parole/probation for being in an unpermitted location relative to criminal concentration.

Sat Jan 28, 11:03:00 AM EST
Anonymous said...

"buzoncrime", you are right--the ONLY people in MD who should be allowed to carry are the highly-trained and highly reliable LEOs of MD.

I'm sure that Officer William H. Torbit, Jr. and Tyrone Brown, USMC both would agree that Baltimore police are the only people who can be trusted to carry firearms...

Mon Jan 30, 02:49:00 AM EST
buzoncrime said...

Well, anonymous at 1;27, we're very glad that Concealed Carry Permit Holders are such wonderful people. I'm sure most are.
While I'm sure the State Police are a bit too restrictive in their issuing of handgun permits, you don't need one to have a gun at home.

After reading your breathless response, though, I'm sorry you live in such crime-filled areas that you feel a need to carry a gun around all the time. Jeez, and just think: I don't know of a single person, except perhaps police, who carry guns regularly.

And, really, you carry a gun while you're running? Hmm. It must be a small one. Since I trained for and completed 3 marathons, I find it a bit incomprehensible, that you'd need a gun while "jogging". Don't you worry your sweat might cause some corrosion?
And why would a "crackhead" threaten you with a knife? If you're dressed in running attire, you almost certainly don't have any valuables on you, do you?

And since you're such a loving parent, you might want to consider the dangers of firearms in any household which has children. The risks of them being accidentally shot are enormous.

Mon Jan 30, 09:10:00 AM EST
buzoncrime said...

And, Anonymous at 11.03, er, Galt, your idea is impractical, though thought-provoking.

Almost everyone sent to prison is going to come "home". Most have no support system except the family and/or friends they knew before. So, they're going to go right back home to the same neighborhoods.

I agree that Maryland doesn't do much in the way of rehabilitation, and that going back to the milieu of crime and drugs is not good for your re-entry.

Most ex-offenders don't really want to go back to jail, but in this economy especially, the chances of them getting a legitimate job are very difficult and often border on nil.

Mon Jan 30, 09:35:00 AM EST
buzoncrime said...

And, Anonymous of the Gun, I think your comment about the 2 killed persons is something that should be turned on its head.
A lot of people carrying guns around in plainclothes is a recipe for disaster. There were a lot of mistakes made in the Torbit killing, by lot of different actors.

And, as far as the Marine's murder goes, it's pretty clear that the Baltimore police need more restrictions on their "concealed carry"--not less.

A better example is what happened in New York, when an off-duty ATF Supervisory Agent walked in on a holdup of a drug store. A customer ran next door, and found a retired cop and an off-duty NYPD cop. They ran next door to stop the robbery, but encountered the ATF agent, in plainclothes, struggling with the gunman. Several shots were fired. The investigation is incomplete, but the ATF agent was killed, likely by one of the intervening good Samaritans.

The presence of more guns often can escalate a situation--even with trained people.

Mon Jan 30, 09:51:00 AM EST
ppatin said...

Buz:

I have great respect for your real-world experience but IMO your claim that "A lot of people carrying guns around in plainclothes is a recipe for disaster" has been at least partially disproven.

Most states allow concealed carry by regular citizens and the epidemic of accidental shootings that were predicted when CCW laws were relaxed simply hasn't taken place. I'd need to dig up the statistics but I believe deaths of law-abiding citizens at the hands of legally carried concealed weapons are about as common as fatal shark attacks or death by killer bees.

Tue Jan 31, 12:55:00 PM EST
buzoncrime said...

Hi PPatin,

I will not attempt to get into a statistical battle over my comment.
It's just my contention that in a chaotic, fast-moving situation, the presence of well-intentioned, even, allegedly well-trained individuals can be a problem, particularly at night in a threatening atmosphere with a lot of noise.
The Torbit case is a perfect example. Here's an on-duty officer, known personally to every officer on the scene, assigned to the same district, yet they mistakenly shot and killed him. The death of the ATF agent is another example.
There have been a fair number of these "friendly fire" incidents over the years.
Not to mention the number of "intruders" shot and killed by persons defending their homes in what later turned out to be family member coming home or going to the bathroom in the dark.
Not to mention the number of children accidentally killed when they found the household protection weapon, which was mistakenly left available--or "hidden" where the kids "certainly" couldn't find it.
Not to mention kids like the one in Dulaney Valley who killed his whole family, or the recent murder in Harford County. (Both in very low crime areas) I'm sure the overwhelming majority of these guns were legally possessed, not necessarily concealed carry.
Not many security consultants would recommend private citizens or even business owners be armed--except in exceptional circumstances. The risks of criminal and civill liability are just way too great.
I don't have a problem with CCW laws, per se, but am not enthusiastic about them. If people think that they feel safer in carrying a loaded gun around for..... whatever, as long as it's legal, I'm ok with it. I just think it's kind of a silly idea. I think it's good to have one in your home, but only if you don't have kids. If you are that frightened about crime perhaps you should live in or move about different/safer areas. I just don't see CCW as a panacea, but sure, if you feel scared, take it to bars, schools, churches, around wherever. And please be right if you actually shoot and kill someone. And even if you are legally right, you may not like other unanticipated consequences.

Tue Jan 31, 04:26:00 PM EST
Cham said...

I'll just make one comment about concealed carry laws, I don't wish to get into any long discussions. Detroit has CCW laws, the law abiding population is in love with its guns, thousands have gotten gun permits and bought guns.

The result is Detroit is swimming in guns. Because there are so many guns, they are getting into the wrong hands. Homicides are up this year by 12.5%. Homicides are up 24% in January of 2012 over January of 2011. Detroit had 31 homicides in the first 29 days of the year, most of them are caused by gunshots. The police are overwhelmed and the situation is getting worse.

Tue Jan 31, 06:24:00 PM EST
Cham said...

That should have read homicides were up 12.5% in 2011 over 2010.

Tue Jan 31, 06:25:00 PM EST
Anonymous said...

Well,... primarily because Baltimore is home to an excessively concentrated criminal population, the main effect of prohibiting concealed carry here is that

a) reasonably law-abiding people dare not be armed,

b) repeat offenders are generally packing, and

c) political insiders like clerk of the court Frank Conaway can apparently break any law they wish, including handgun laws. Someone will find a loophole for them.

A situation where the hoodlums are armed but the victims are sitting ducks is NOT going to work out well. Think about it.

Only one solution: cut the percentage of hoodlums at large in Baltimore to under 5%. Yes, by incarceration, and I don't care what color they happen to be.

- Galt

Tue Jan 31, 07:21:00 PM EST
Anonymous said...

Buzoncrime, I understand that as a retired LEO, you are expected to toe the party line in MD and repeat the propaganda, lies, and twisted facts that your ex-bosses and their puppet masters spew ad nauseum regarding firearms.

Your responses are almost not worth responding to, because nearly everything you said is untrue, but I've been fighting this battle in MD for over three years, and I'm growing sick and tired of the lies and filth that are consistently put out by MD LEOs on this issue, so I'm going to call you out.

I imagine you haven't actually done the research, and read the mortality reports issued by the CDC and Census Bureau for the last few decades, or else you wouldn't be putting this nonsense out as if it were gospel. But let me enlighten you...

According to the Census Bureau, a person is nearly THREE TIMES as likely to die due to complications of a medical procedure than from a firearms "accident". Using your logic, we shouldn't take our children to the hospital, because it is actually MORE risky than having a gun. (1999, 1134 gun-related accidental deaths, vs 2939 deaths due to medical complications).

A person is over three times as likely to die from drowning. (3488 drowning deaths). So we shouldn't take our kids to the pool or the beach either, if we love them.

And a person is nearly 40 times more likely to die in a traffic accident than from a "firearms accident (43,649 motor vehicle traffic deaths)

Granted, these figures are the TOTAL number of deaths. Children (people aged 0-17) generally count for somewhere between 25% and 65% of these numbers (more for drowning, about 50% for falling, under 25% for suicide)

The "fact" that children are being killed by the thousands each year in firearms "accidents" is simply not true. This is easy to determine, by going to the websites operated by CDC and the Census Bureau and reviewing the data.

The CDC Mortality Statistics show that a child (age 0-17) has a FAR greater chance of being killed by drowning, falling, accidental poisoning with cleaning products, or even STRUCK BY LIGHTNING than from a handgun owned by their parents.

Wed Feb 01, 08:32:00 PM EST
Anonymous said...

As for your "assessment" of my ability or proficiency with firearms, and my suitability to own them, I assure you that the States of NC, PA, UT, and VA all seem to think, after comprehensive state and Federal background checks, that I am perfectly safe enough to be issued multiple CC permits.

I'm a nationally-ranked USPSA competitor.

I was a founding officer of an SCCC chapter at a major Southern University, and have been invited to speak on CC issues on several syndicated radio shows.

I have testified before the MD House Judiciary Committee (once in person, once by paper submission) in 2010 and 2011 on the CC Reciprocity Bills before the House.

I am a MENSA member.

I'm just a few semesters short of a Masters Degree.


So let's get a few things straight. I'm not "anti-cop". I'm not some "gun nut" or "survivalist" or "right wing extremist" or "vigilante" or "John Wayne".

But I do take issue with LEOs who make up "facts", who misquote, fabricate, or flatly lie about the law and easily verifiable statistics.

The badge bears a tremendous weight of responsibility, and if you don't know something, the badge DOES NOT give you the authority to just makes stuff up, or repeat the hogwash that you've been spoon-fed by the media, the MD Legislature, and the organized criminal enterprise operating in Pikesville called the MSP. In fact, your oath actually REQUIRES you to be honorable, truthful and to defend the Constitution.

So please, unless you can back up your ridiculous propaganda with facts, figures and citeable sources, save it for backyard BBQs with your sheeple neighbors and your fellow "boys in blue".

There ARE still some of us in MD that can read, and do research, and know what a library is for. Our numbers are growing, and we're sick of the lies.

And we're calling out all the liars in Annapolis and Pikesville every chance we get--in the media, on the internet, and in upcoming MD General Assembly hearings.

You say you don't want to get into a discussion about statistics--I understand that. If we did, you would lose, plain and simple. The anti-self-defense crowd can only argue from a position of lies, emotion and propaganda. Facts are, to them, like holy water to a vampire...

Wed Feb 01, 08:33:00 PM EST
Anonymous said...

I pray for the State of MD. It's people (especially in the 4 Urban Counties) have been lied to for decades by a sociopathic cabal of the State Government and the MSP, and as a result, they have volunteered to be one of the most crime-ridden urban areas in the Mid-Atlantic Region.

Don't believe the lies. If more law-abiding citizens equaled more crime, and fewer permits = less crime, DC, Baltimore and NYC would be the safest cities on the continent, and WV, PA, VA and NC would be so piled high with bodies that you couldn't drive down the road.

There are nearly a quarter-million concealed carry permit holders in VA.

PA has nearly three quarters of a million carry permits in circulation.

NC has just under a quarter million permits on the books

Even WV with its comparatively tiny population, has over 60,000 permits in effect.

Of the 47,000 carry permits issued in MD (most of which are "restricted" and only apply to job-related carry like for security guards and armored truck drivers) there are fewer than 200 "civilians" with "unrestricted" permits in MD, and most of them are elected officials, VIPS and non-LEO Officers of the Court.

Maryland has the 8th highest violent crime rate in the nation. Gang membership is skyrocketing and gang-related crime is actually on the RISE in MD (while it has been trending DOWN in ALL your neighboring states for the last 5 years)

DC is almost always in the top 10.

VA, PA, WV, and NC aren't even in the top 15.

Do the math...


The fact is that in the last three years, EVERY SINGLE PERSON in MD who committed a violent crime and was legally carrying at the time was either an LEO, a State's Attorney, or an Officer of the Court.

It's not armed citizens we need to worry about.

It's uneducated, sociopathic, drunken bully cops and government officials on power-trips that commit the majority of the violent crimes committed by people legally authorized to carry in MD.

If MD wants to reduce crimes committed by authorized concealed carriers, it needs to take the guns away from the cops and politicians first...

Wed Feb 01, 08:33:00 PM EST

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